On Palm Sunday in April 2023, President Russell M. Nelson of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints invited individuals to be the “Peacemaker Needed” in what is sometimes a contentious world.
In 2024, presidential elections will happen or have happened in nearly 50 countries around the world. These countries are home to more than half the world’s population. At times like these, we are reminded of the political neutrality of the Church, as well as the invitation to participate in the civic election process.
On this episode of the Church News podcast, we are joined by the former opinion editor of the Deseret News, Boyd Matheson, to discuss using gospel principles in influencing and impacting communities, disagreeing without being disagreeable, the Constitution of the United States of America, and leaning on the teachings of Christ in becoming peacemakers.
Listen to the Church News podcast on Apple Podcasts, Amazon, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get podcasts.
Transcript:
Boyd Matheson: That’s where we make a difference, as we help a neighbor in need, or as we minister in the Savior’s higher and holier way. That’s how you transform the world. And so, I can get a little pessimistic about our politics around the world, but I’ve never been more hopeful for the future, because of the people I see in community, and especially because of the people I see in the community of Christ, within the Church of Jesus Christ, covenant-keeping, covenant-living disciples of Jesus Christ. They’re the ones that give me great hope for the future of any country and every community. And so, I think what I know is not only can we be the hope of our nations, not only can we be the hope of our communities, we’ve also been given a challenge by living prophets and apostles and by the Savior Himself to be the hope in our communities.
1:05
Jon Ryan Jensen: This is Jon Ryan Jensen, editor of the Church News. Welcome to the Church News podcast. Today, we are taking you on a journey of connection as we discuss news and events of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
On Palm Sunday in April 2023, President Russell M. Nelson of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints invited individuals to be the peacemakers needed in what is sometimes a contentious world. In 2024, presidential elections have happened or will happen in nearly 50 countries around the world, where more than half the world’s population lives. At times like these, we are reminded of the political neutrality of the Church as well as the invitation to participate in the civic election process.
How do we, wherever we are, engage civically as peacemakers in what can be a divisive and contentious landscape? And what do we learn from Church leaders from this dispensation and those from the scriptures about how to encourage peace in our communities?
On this episode of the Church News podcast, we are joined by the former opinion editor of the Deseret News, Boyd Matheson, to discuss using principles in influencing and impacting communities, disagreeing without being disagreeable, the Constitution of the United States of America, and leaning on the teachings of Christ in becoming peacemakers. Matheson is currently the social and political commentator, host of Sunday Edition with KSL TV in Salt Lake City, and talk radio host for KSL NewsRadio, where he ends each episode with a reminder to, each day, “see something that inspires. Say something that uplifts. Do something that makes a difference.” We’re grateful he has joined us on today’s episode.
Welcome back, Boyd, to the Church News podcast.
Boyd Matheson: It is great to be back.
2:45
Jon Ryan Jensen: Boyd, you have had experiences nationally, locally and at times internationally to see Church leaders and the way they engage with leaders of other nations, leaders of other religions. I would love to hear maybe some of your broad perspective as we get started today, to help us understand kind of where you come from, and maybe a little bit of what you’ve seen that gives you a feeling of encouragement about how we can engage in this civic process.
3:13
Boyd Matheson: Yeah, this is one of those many, many areas where we can just look to the Prophet for a guide and an example. I was fortunate to travel as part of a media team when President Nelson was doing his global ministry tours back before the pandemic. And one of the things that I love to watch President Nelson do was what we call side-by-side leadership. I watched him, just, he comes up to the side of you, and he just slips his arm in there and links arms with you and then locks arms with you. And I’ve seen him do it with presidents of countries. I’ve seen him do it with popes and other religious leaders, imams in New Zealand, and it’s an extraordinary thing to watch.
President Russell M. Nelson of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints puts his arm around the Rev. Amos C. Brown of the Third Baptist Church of San Francisco, California at a press conference at the Church Administration Building in Salt Lake City on Monday, June 14, 2021. | Scott G Winterton, Deseret News
In fact, we were talking about it before the dedication of the (Concepción) Chile Temple with Elder (Gary E.) Stevenson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And someone said, “Well, he’s doing that because he’s old.” And Elder Stevenson immediately fired back and said, “Oh no, if you are not ready, he will rip your shoulder out.” But it’s this whole idea of we’re going to link arms and we’re going to lock arms and we’re going to travel together. And so that’s one of the lessons that I have always looked at and said no matter what you’re doing — whether it’s a local political issue, dealing with something that’s happening in your community — if we can just learn to follow President Nelson’s example, side by side, shoulder to shoulder, linking and locking arms, all the other things go away. Politics goes away.
When you’re helping somebody and you’re standing side by side, digging a trench or planting a tree or painting a fence, nobody’s asking, “Who did you vote for in the last election?” or “Which political party do you belong to?” because what we have to learn is we have to first allow the grace in other people’s humanity, something that all the general officers of the Church do so well; they see that humanity. And so we have patience for each other because we’re all human. And then we have the dignity across our differences. So, even though we might disagree on something, there’s still dignity in that.
And if we do that, then we get to where it gets really exciting, especially as disciples of Jesus Christ, and that is when we see the divinity in those around us. Then we can start making a difference in community that goes way past politics, goes way past election cycles anywhere in the world, because we’re helping to actually build something that is a kingdom. And kingdoms are actually flat. It’s leading from any point to the compass. You don’t need a title, you don’t need a position, you just need to show up and then live the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
5:37
Jon Ryan Jensen: I love that. There are a lot of things that we can break down just in what you’ve said right there, Boyd, but one of the things that I love you said is talking about the ditch digging, you know, when we’re doing that side by side with our neighbors and really bringing it down to that neighborly principle. I’m reminded of my grandfather, who worked for an insurance company for 35 years, and in the back of his old, beat-up Chevy truck, he always had the gallon of gas. He always had his toolbox. And no matter where we went, if he saw somebody on the side of the road, he was going to pull over, and we were going to take some time to help that person to be on their way. The gallon of water for the radiator, whatever it was that he needed to do, he was going to go there and help. I feel like that principle is some of what you’re talking about.
6:18
Boyd Matheson: It absolutely is. And in fact, it was interesting this past week, I was down in Lima, Peru, for a conference there of young Latter-day Saint professionals from all over South America, and these people who are lawyers and health care professionals, some are involved in government and community, but they’re all just there to learn the principles of: “How do we make a difference in our community or in our country based on the principles and teachings of Jesus Christ?” It’s an extraordinary gathering, four days of seminars and training.
Boyd Matheson, opinion editor of the Deseret News, left; Bob Woodward, Washington Post reporter who broke the Watergate story in 1973 and current associate editor at the Post; Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; and Michael Dimock, president of the Pew Research Center; speak during “Integrity and Trust: Lessons from Watergate and Today” at the Newseum in Washington, D.C. on Monday, Jan. 14, 2019. | Deseret News
And of course, Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles came and gave a keynote address. And he talked about it, as he often does, as one by one, that if you want to go out and make a difference in the world, you do that one by one. And whether it’s with a gallon of gas in the back of your car, or a toolbox or a shovel, or just being mindful of your coworker who may be having a bad day, or the person you interact with at the grocery store and just saying hi and taking a personal interest, that’s where we make a difference.
We have to remember that the big problems of the world are not going to be solved in marble halls of a government building. They’re going to be solved across kitchen tables, across back fences, as we help a neighbor in need, as we help our children learn how to stand up to a bully for a friend, as we have teachers who are willing to take the time to kneel at the side of a struggling student, or as we minister in the Savior’s higher and holier way. That’s how you transform the world. It will never come from government or politicians. They have their role, to be sure, but it’s community and culture that always lead; politicians and governments follow. But it’s community and culture that lead, and it’s a community of Christ and a culture of eternal principles that allow us to do that.
8:05
Jon Ryan Jensen: When I think about how that works at a personal level, you have President Nelson, who, since the beginning of his tenure as Prophet and President of the Church, has encouraged individuals to “hear Him,” meaning hear Heavenly Father, hear the inspiration that comes from the Holy Ghost. And that doesn’t come in the form of a daily email that we all receive, where Heavenly Father says, “Here are the things I hope you all do today.” It really is He knows us individually, and He gives us that counsel individually.
How do you see Heavenly Father’s personal inspiration playing into how we engage with each other?
8:39
Boyd Matheson: I love that you raised that, Ryan, because especially in an intense political climate, a polarized political climate all over the world — all over the world, we’re seeing this — and we have to be able to hear that. We do have to be able to “hear Him.” And often it’s the angry voices, it’s the loud and mean texts that we receive or the the real vitriol that we see on social media that’s angry, it’s filled with angst and all the negative base emotions, and you can’t “hear Him” in the midst of all of that.
Latter-day Saints know from the house of the Lord, going to holy temples, that if you want to have the Spirit of the Lord unrestrained in your life, you can’t have unkind feelings. And so much of our politics these days produces unkind feelings. And Satan knows that, because he knows if he can get us all angry and frustrated and full of angst, we’re not going to be able to “hear Him,” we’re not going to have the influence of the Holy Ghost, and so we’re not going to do the things that make a difference in our own families, in our own neighborhoods, our own communities and our own countries.
And so if you find yourself, especially in a political season, having unkind feelings, then that’s a big red flag that we have to respond to and say, “Wait a minute. I need to step back. I need to reframe what really matters. What’s the real issue here, and why am I feeling unkind feelings? And then how do I get back to a space of principle?” And so often, we’re presented in politics — and I’ve seen this in places in Europe and all over South America and in Asia, and here in the United States — that we get these fake fights and false choices, and many politicians have gotten very good at it, because you get everybody all riled up and all angry and full of fear and frustration, and then they present a false choice: “It’s this or this.” And that’s not how it works.
When you base it on principle, you could take, for example, something like immigration is a big issue here in the United States, and a lot of people like to argue about that. A lot of politicians like to raise money for their campaigns off of that or use it as a way to drive wedges in their community. But they’re very simple, eternal principles that are compatible. So you could look at something like immigration and say, “Rule of law and compassion. Those are actually compatible principles.”
And that’s part of the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It teaches us and shows us that all of these principles are compatible principles. And once people get to that space, guess what? All the angry and all the political divide goes away, and you actually start talking about solutions. The beginning to the answer to any problem begins when somebody says, “Let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about it, and I’m going to listen, and I’m going to ask questions, and we’re going to have a dialogue.”
I often joke that — I grew up in a family of 11 children, and one of the things that we did, a tradition that my parents had for us, was every Saturday afternoon, 5 o’clock, all 11 children were expected to be at home. And in our house, we had this big counter — it was like a cafe counter — and all 11 of us would sit around, and my dad would make pancakes for us. And, Ryan, I don’t know if you’ve had pancakes in a large group before; they do not come in stacks. In fact, we always had the joke at my house that eating pancakes with the Mathesons was like the early stages of labor pains; you got them one at a time and about 10 minutes apart. And yet, it was during that time when we were waiting for those precious pancakes to come our way that my parents were sharing things that were important to them. More importantly, they were finding out what was important to us kids, and they created this great dialogue.
Now, we didn’t read scriptures, we didn’t sing hymns, we didn’t quote philosophers or prophets, and I’m sure we had a few arguments about who got the last pancake or who had to do the dishes, but it was sacred time, and it taught me the value of just stepping back and saying, “Let’s talk about it, and let’s have a different kind of conversation.” I think, all over the world, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we need to invite people to come to the table and have a conversation.
12:48
Jon Ryan Jensen: And that can happen literally around the pancake table. We do pancakes at my house every Saturday morning as well. So I appreciate that analogy as you were talking about that, and I was reminded of something that President Dallin H. Oaks posted to his social media recently as he talked about how we reconcile and better understand that love and law. He said: “As Latter-day Saints, many of us — not all of us but many of us — are inclined to insist on ‘the law’ and do so in an unloving way. I receive many letters from people who are devastated at the choices being made by someone in their family. As they ask, ‘What are we to do?,’ the first thing I always suggest is keep loving them. In the end, that is something you and I can always do.”
He talks about Heavenly Father’s love, and at the end of his post, he says: “The Savior Jesus Christ commanded and reminded His followers ‘that ye love one another; as I have loved you. … By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another’ (John 13:34-35), and ‘if ye love me, keep my commandments’ (John 14:15).”
And he closes with his testimony and says: “May we remember that the Lord Jesus Christ atoned ‘for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also’ (Alma 42:15).”
14:04
Boyd Matheson: Yeah. Compatible principles.
Jon Ryan Jensen: Compatible principles.
Boyd Matheson, right, speaks with Sarah Jane Weaver, center, and Carole Mikita, left, about the 100th birthday of President Russell M. Nelson on KSL TV’s “Sunday Edition” television program. | Screenshot from KSL TV
Boyd Matheson: Yeah. And I think it’s so easy to get lost in the politics of it. And sadly, what we’ve seen in many countries is in many places, we have deified our politics and our politicians, and we’ve politicized our faith and our faith spaces, and that’s a dangerous place. It’s something we all need to keep in mind, is we have faith and faith spaces because that’s where Deity — that’s where our Heavenly Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost — will minister to us, and where we can make covenants and renew covenants. And so we have to be very careful. The media, in particular, often will deify a politician or a political party and set them up as this — something more than they are.
And so we have to be very careful. It’s easy to get divided, even in our own wards and branches, because it’s easy to say, “Oh, well, he believes this,” or “She believes that.” So I believe we have to stay radically curious. And so we say, “Well, I wonder why she thinks that’s the best way to solve that problem,” or “I wonder what it is that is causing him to follow this particular politician or voting for this particular candidate,” and having that radical curiosity to ask, to seek, to knock, to listen, because then that begins to change everything.
15:23
Jon Ryan Jensen: And there’s a difference there between being radically curious and wanting to engage in a conversation so you can tell them why you believe what you believe.
Boyd Matheson: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I always say, “If you must speak, ask a question and then listen, really listen, and listen in a different way.” I love that Solomon, if you look at the interpretation of what Solomon asked for, Solomon could have asked for anything. And we think of the wisdom of Solomon. And if you go back into the original translations, he asked for a listening heart. (See 1 Kings 3:9)
So I always tie this back to President Nelson. We always think of the heart, but we don’t think about the heart as a listening organ. We think of our ears as a listening organ, but a listening heart, that’s a whole different angle and application of a principle. And so, recognizing that, to say, “OK, I’m going to ask a question, and then I’m going to listen to the response, and I’m going to be fully present. I’m not going to do what we often do in our political conversations. I’ll sit here while you talk, waiting for you to stop so I can start on my bullet points.”
And this is another interesting thing that I’ve seen from many of the leaders in the Church. Former (Young Women General) President Bonnie Cordon, Elder Ulisses Soares, they have this extraordinary ability. Elder (Gerrit W.) Gong has this gift, as does Sister (Susan) Gong, and that is to be present. I think giving someone your presence is the most holy thing you can give another person to fully be there, to listen. I watched President Bonnie Cordon do this in a group of young women after an extremely long day. I knew she was exhausted. I knew she still had an hour drive to get home. And I watched her for one hour after all the meetings were done, one by one, talking with young women — not just doing a handshake and “Nice to meet you” — asking a specific question, being fully present, listening, asking a follow-up question, which is the ultimate; anybody can ask one question. Can you ask a good follow-up question?
Jon Ryan Jensen: “Did you listen? What are you going to come back with?”
Boyd Matheson: Yeah. And we think about that from the temple as well. How often do we hear “presence” and “holy presence.” And learning to do that even in our political discussions, I think, is an important part to fully listen, to be present as we interact with other people.
17:37
Jon Ryan Jensen: That principle of the listening heart also reminds me of another teaching of President Nelson in a way that he is encouraging us to actively engage in that process of gaining a listening heart. And that was his recent invitation for us to leave the 99 and find “the one” in our life. Because he’s not saying, “Go find the one, put a leash on them and drag them back somewhere.” He’s saying — and I think this is what the Savior, perhaps, was explaining with the sheep — “You go to the one, ‘Hey, are you OK? Why are you separated from everybody? What are you feeling right now?’”
And it’s conversation and discussion to help someone feel that love that you have for them and that desire you have for them to be a part of the safety of that group. You don’t want them to be alone and endangered.
18:24
Boyd Matheson: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think that’s ministering, and I think that’s what the Savior was really teaching, was that higher and holier way of ministering, that it’s not a checkbox. It’s not “Did I go find the one,” as you said, “put a leash on them and drag them home, or scold them for wandering off?” But to be there and to just be with them.
I love in the description of Job, Job’s going through all of his challenges. Job was a “one,” and he was suffering in ways we can’t even imagine. But it says his friends came from all the countries round about and met together, so they were in tune. There’s no way they could have all known that Job was having all of these troubles.
Jon Ryan Jensen: There were no group texts.
Boyd Matheson: There were no group texts, there was nothing posted on social media. But so they were in tune enough to know, so they gathered. And then what did they do? They went to Job, and they didn’t scold him. It says that they came, and they sat with him seven days and said not a word. (See Job 2:13). They didn’t try to solve his problems. They didn’t try to fix his problems. They didn’t try to whine and complain and moan and groan with him. They just sat with him. They were just present with him for seven days. That’s an extraordinary thing, and that’s what we need to do with “the one.”
Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist George Will speaks at Weber State University on Tuesday, Sept. 6, 2023. Will was interviewed by Boyd Matheson as part of the Olene S. Walker Institute of Politics & Public Service’s Constitution Day celebration. | Benjamin Zack
Sometimes with the one, you just need to go sit with them, or you just need to show up, and you can do that in a text. I actually had an exchange this morning with someone who’s dealing with a great loss, a suicide in their family. And I could say, “What can we do for you?” But I know at times like these, there’s not a good answer to that. And I said, “But even if it’s virtually, I can sit with you seven days. I can pray that you can have peace for seven days.” And I think that’s part of what President Nelson has called us to do as peacemakers. Sometimes we think of peacemakers as stopping a war. Sometimes, being a peacemaker is building the kingdom and helping individuals come unto Christ.
20:21
Jon Ryan Jensen: A few weeks ago, here in Salt Lake City, the Church hosted through the Utah Area a gathering of young adults from all over, and some of them were — well, most of them were — from Utah, but many of them were not, as they were coming back to go to their respective colleges and universities. And it was great to watch them as they came together, to learn together about common beliefs and expand their testimonies, and also to see them engage in service activities together.
Because, again, it’s not to say, “Hey, I’m looking for someone who I want to date.” It’s not to say, “Hey, I’m here for a Sunday School lesson.” It’s just, “Hey, we’re going to sit around this table, and we are going to help serve families who we will never meet, individuals who we may never know, and we’re just going to do something for a common good,” and watching them then start having conversations.
But, Boyd, as you think about how that principle can be enacted with others — you’ve mentioned the pancakes — but how do those who are engaged in a political discord, what are the kinds of activities that you think can be beneficial to them so that they can also maybe not be distracted but be engaged in a good cause and have a good conversation together?
21:40
Boyd Matheson: Yeah, I think it’s part of the reason why we’re commanded to gather. There is power in gathering. I’m one of those who firmly believes that if we get everyone together and cry together, it would change the world. Laughing together changes the world. It brings the Spirit. And so I think all of those times where you get to gather and have conversation or be present with one another can be absolutely transformational.
And it’s interesting; in some countries, they actually ask as part of their national surveys, as they look at what is it that’s causing this polarization and all of this fragmentation of society, and they ask this lovely question: “When was the last time that you ate or had a meal with someone from a different race or a different religion?” And imagine what that would do to the world if just once a month you went and had a hot chocolate or a soda or a walk around the neighborhood with someone who looks different, thinks different, believes different, acts different than you do.
And one of the things that that does, of course, is break down the barriers and the stereotypes that politics often causes us to believe and yet are not real. There are people that I disagree with on all kinds of policy issues, but they have great integrity, and I learn from them, and we have conversations that are so great. One of my favorite things in all the political conversations is when I walk away thinking, “Wow, I had never thought of it that way before.” Or, “Man, that is so interesting that she believes this is the path to solving that particular problem in that community or society.”
And so, being open to that, and then gathering. And I think one of the things that’s really important in those gatherings — again, they can be virtual, they can be in person — is to do what President Nelson has asked, and that is not to be a wallflower and not to be passive. We have the truth, and we have divine principles that we can stand confidently with. We should have, as Elder Soares of the Quorum of the Twelve has taught us, we should have “covenant confidence” to talk about those kinds of principles.
Gaylord Swim once said that politics and community discussions need strong advocates, certainly, but they also need “a counter-balancing sense of humility, civility and dialogue.” So, humility, civility and dialogue. Those are things every single one of us, wherever we are in this world, whatever we do in our families and communities, and for professions or school, we all can have humility. That’s the beginning of learning, is humility, and then to have that civility again, that dignity across our differences, and then we can have real dialogue. We can have an elevated conversation that’s devoid of the rage and the anger and the fear, and that’s actually what leads us to really good solutions.
24:37
Jon Ryan Jensen: You might have just answered part of this question, but I know that you have seen this, whether it’s with Church members of different religions engaging with each other or different political beliefs.
But do you have any counsel or any observations on how people who don’t feel like someone else’s opinion is worth hearing? How do you get from that point to a point where you are willing to sit across the table from someone who believes something different?
25:01
Boyd Matheson: Yeah, I’m so glad you asked that, Ryan. That’s a really insightful question, and it leads to an important, I think, discussion, and that is: I think the real problem in the world is not polarization, it’s contempt. Now, contempt I always define as the belief in the worthlessness of another person because they disagree with you. And so if I have contempt for you because we disagree, then “you’re not just wrong, you’re wrong and evil. And because you’re wrong and evil, and I feel that contempt for you in my heart, I can say whatever I want about you. I can post whatever I want about your opinion, your family, who you are, where you live, and I can post that on social media, and I can say all kinds of things, and I can still sleep at night.”
Jon Ryan Jensen: “Because I’m that right and you’re that wrong.”
25:53
Boyd Matheson: Exactly. And I can still show up to church on Sunday and feel good about myself. And this is not a new thing. This is not a new thing. In fact, this is one of my favorite pieces of history. You know I love history. So, we’re going to go back to 1893. So, this was three years before Utah became a state here in the United States. And it also happened to be when they dedicated the Salt Lake Temple. Wilford Woodruff dedicated the temple. And within the dedicatory prayer, there is a section on politics in the dedicatory prayer for a house of the Lord. And I just want to read this, because to me, this is the answer to everything.
So, again, years before Utah became a state, after all the sacrifice that created the Salt Lake Temple as a house of the Lord, Wilford Woodruff prayed: “O God …, Thou seest the course Thy people have been led to take in political matters. They have, in many instances, joined the two great national parties. Campaigns have been entered upon, elections have been held, and much party feeling has been engendered. Many things have been said and done which have wounded the feelings of the humble and the meek, and which have been a cause of offense.”
And then he continued. Wilford Woodruff — this, again, this is part of the dedicatory prayer of the Salt Lake Temple — he said: “We beseech Thee, in Thine infinite mercy and goodness, to forgive Thy people wherein they have sinned in this direction.” And then he concludes with this: “Enable Thy people hereafter to avoid bitterness and strife, and to refrain from words and acts in political discussions that shall create feeling (that) grieve Thy Holy Spirit.”
I find that fascinating, that in a remote territory in the Western United States, at the dedication of a holy house, that Wilford Woodruff would say there’s a right way and a wrong way to have political conversations, and that the Lord knows the right way and His people need to follow it.
28:01
Jon Ryan Jensen: And he didn’t say in there, “And therefore, we hope that they all come together in this one party,” yeah. He’s talking about the acts that follow the things you believe.
Boyd Matheson: Yeah, exactly.
Jon Ryan Jensen: I really appreciate that. Recently, I was with Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles up in Logan. He rededicated the Logan Tabernacle. And, first off, kudos to those pioneers back then. That dedicatory ceremony, when it was first dedicated, it was nine hours long. So there was a lot of talking and listening.
And I don’t know how soft my heart would have been to listen at that point, but he said that the very first meeting that happened in that tabernacle — which was a few years, actually, before it was finished — was a meeting of different leaders of different religions in the in the Cache Valley, and that they came together with a plea for unity among the community, that within this tabernacle, you know, here we have this sacred structure, but we’re going to set this up as a community place where we can be together and work together.
I really loved the fact that that was there. And he said in his rededicatory prayer that he hoped that Heavenly Father would bless the people that they would be able to do the same thing today, that they would come back to those same principles nearly 175 years later, of working together toward unity.
29:20
Boyd Matheson: Yeah, I’m so glad you shared that, Ryan, and I think Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has been such an extraordinary advocate for those very principles. He knows so much of the history. And going back to those really founding principles of human dignity, and I always add human divinity, and recognizing that that’s really the basis of constitutions and declarations and laws and what happens in our community, and recognizing that we have a role to play in that.
And I think it’s one of those things that, especially in the public square, that we need to be confident as disciples of Jesus Christ, that we can take our faith into the public square. It is not banished. It is not banned to only be pulled out in a church or a mosque or a synagogue, only on Sundays or only in our closets or in our homes. We’re to not put it under a bushel but on a candlestick, and then we’re supposed to go out in the public square and lean into those principles, because they are; they’re eternal principles.
And the amazing thing that I’ve found all over the world — doesn’t matter where you go — eternal principles ring true. Doesn’t matter what faith, what race, what religion, what political orientation or anything else. True principles ring true, and our job is to make sure we’re creating space and providing a place where people can hear and they can recognize that. It’s the sound of the certain trumpet of true principles, and that’s what we’re to carry into the public square.
In the ancient battles, noise was part of the problem. This may sound familiar to what we’re dealing with today, and noise is a problem. All of the clamor and chatter that goes on in a big battle was often part of the problem, and if the soldiers at the front couldn’t understand or know what the commander at the back was asking them to do, that often meant the difference between life and death, victory and defeat, and that’s where this whole principle of the certain trumpet came about, because there was a certain trumpet, different from all the others, that when the soldiers heard that, they knew exactly what to do. They knew whether to advance or retreat, go to the right or to the left. And the same is true with eternal principles. They are that certain trumpet.
And so when we find ourselves in political conversations or community conversations, we need to make sure, one, we’re both listening for, but also sending out principles in that same manner, that certain trumpet. And you can’t sound the certain trumpet if you’re shouting. You can’t even play the trumpet if you’re shouting, if you’re angry. I always tell people: “Speak in anger, and you will give the best speech you will ever live to regret.” And anyone who is married knows that to be a true thing. You speak in anger, you may deliver the best speech of your life, and it will be the worst speech, because the consequences will be dire.
Jon Ryan Jensen: You’ll regret it the longest.
Boyd Matheson: Yeah. And restraint always works. Just because you can say something doesn’t mean you should say something. There are times to hold our peace. Again, the Savior had those moments where He spoke not a word, and yet He spoke volumes. And there were times where He did have to stand up and speak out. And we have to be willing to do the same, but we can’t do that functioning either from a position of anger or from a position of weakness. We have to function from a position of strength, and we can always function from a position of strength because of what we know and because of those eternal principles that are part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
33:00
Jon Ryan Jensen: When you talk about human divinity, I’m reminded of a lesson I learned once from seemingly political foes. They were on different sides of the aisle here in the United States, Sen. Orrin Hatch and Sen. Ted Kennedy. And the two of them were well known for the different views that they had from each other. And yet, I heard Senator Hatch one time talk about how much respect the two of them had for each other, the deep love they had for each other and their families.
And he talked about one specific bill that the two of them had worked on for individuals with disabilities, the Americans with Disabilities Act. And he said it was one of those times that was most dear to his heart, because he got to work with someone who he frequently disagreed with, but it was for the good of people who could otherwise not have a voice and not have someone to defend their freedoms, their rights and their abilities. And that was for him, you know, one of those great moments that you could put aside other differences to bring about a good for others.
34:01
Boyd Matheson: Yeah. And one of the things that those two senators displayed is that, yes, they had vast differences on a wider range of issues, but yet they found common ground. Common ground is only found in higher ground. In other words, you have to work for it. You have to climb, you have to go into places that you don’t normally go or engage in conversations that you may not be comfortable with. We’ve got to get comfortable having uncomfortable conversations.
And so, that common ground is always higher ground, but if you’re willing to do the work and actually get there, it actually can become holy ground where you can bring people together to do extraordinary things. It’s where transformation really happens. But again, you have to do the work. You have to get to common ground, which means you’ve got to climb, you’ve got to work, you’ve got to slog your way through it, and then you’ve got to be willing and open so it can become that holy ground.
And I think one of the other things that I learned in watching politicians and government officials from all walks of life all around the world is that people who are driving wedges, it’s impossible to build a bridge. When you’re driving a wedge, it’s impossible because wedges point down and create increased divide, increased space, and if that’s what you’re doing, then it’s impossible to build a bridge, because the ground’s constantly shifting and the space between opinions is getting greater and greater and greater.
I love the way that President Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve often says that. He says, “Those people who are planting thistles in the spring have no intention of harvesting fruit in the fall.” And so we all need to be mindful and aware of that. If you’re getting something in your email box, or you’re getting something in your physical mailbox, or you’re hearing something on social media that is sowing the seeds of division, don’t think for a minute that person’s expecting to harvest fruit in the fall, or positive things. They might be trying to win an election. And people can win an election using bad motives and divisive politics, but it doesn’t mean they get to lead, and it doesn’t mean they get to really make a difference in the end. And so that’s up to us to be those bridge builders, and removing the only way you can deal with a wedge is to remove it. And sometimes that requires us to forgive others, and often it requires us to do the really hard thing and ask for forgiveness.
Here in the United States, I always joke that the most consequential thing that happens in November in the United States government is when the president of the United States pardons a turkey before Thanksgiving. But a pardon is actually one of the loftiest and highest powers that a president of the United States is given. To pardon someone from a criminal offense or from an action, that’s big power, and doing that is an amazing thing, and not just for turkeys, but when we grant a pardon to someone who’s offended us, and then even bigger if we’re willing to ask to be pardoned by someone who maybe we’ve offended in the past.
37:19
Jon Ryan Jensen: You talk about history and loving history. And this is one of the history of language things that I love. We used to say, “I beg your pardon.” We asked people regularly for forgiveness. It was not an uncommon thing. It was something we knew we had to do, and that offer back of, “It’s going to be OK. I forgive you.”
37:39
Boyd Matheson introduces Elder Matthew S. Holland, General Authority Seventy for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, during the America’s Freedom Festival at Provo held in the Marriott Center on the Brigham Young University campus in Provo, Utah, on Sunday, June 30, 2024. | Adam Fondren, for the Deseret News
Boyd Matheson: And you only have to forgive once. To be bitter or to hold a grudge, you have to re-create those negative emotions every day, over and over, and sometimes we allow that to seep into our lives, especially in the political space or areas in community. We allow that grudge or that bitterness, so we’re re-creating those negative base emotions over and over and over again, where, if we would just — you only have to forgive once, and if you do that, then everything can change as you have that opportunity to really forgive and be forgiven. That really is the ultimate in terms of the gospel.
38:19
Jon Ryan Jensen: When you talk about the wedge, we’ll go back to that for just one second as well, because one of the things that I remember my dad, who was a surveyor, who was big on measuring things multiple times before you started to make a cut. And for him, it was a cut in a swath of land. You didn’t want to have to go back and do this over again. Once you start cutting, once you put that wedge in, that axe in, even if you do pull it back out, which is a great act, once you have started, the act of healing takes much longer than the act of putting it in. It takes a lot more patience, a lot more work. And so, getting to that point where we can feel that peace and love for each other to avoid the first contentious blow is going to save us from a lot of troubles down the road as well.
Boyd Matheson: That’s right.
Jon Ryan Jensen: We’ve been studying the Book of Mormon this year with our “Come, Follow Me” study in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I learned a while ago from Elder Richard Heaton, an Area Seventy, one of the ways that he was saying, “Hey, sometimes I understand people might get bored with the standard chronological scripture study.” He said, “I’ll let you in on one of my secrets, and that is to read backwards.” And it’s not just to read backwards just to stay awake, and it’s not to confuse you because you don’t know what’s happening in the story. But he said one of the purposes of studying the scriptures backwards is you get to start with the end.
So, as we were studying with my young men this year, we talked about how, if you want to understand the chapters in the book of Alma not as chapters of war but as a playbook of how to potentially obtain peace, start at the end of the book of Alma, where they’re living in a period of peace, and then work your way backwards. How did they get to this happy place? How did they get to this place where they understood the principles of what it takes to have peace in your community? And then work your way backwards to see the mistakes they made so you know, “Here’s my list of things not to do.”
Do you have examples of that, maybe from the scriptures that you’ve seen as well?
40:23
Boyd Matheson: No, I love that, and I love that you brought up Richard Heaton. He was my branch president as a missionary 40 years ago as I was preparing to go serve in the Japan Kobe Mission. And I learned that very same principle, and I’ve been doing it for 40 years now. So we can both report back to Elder Heaton that we are staying with that theme there.
Jon Ryan Jensen: That is stuck with both of us.
Boyd Matheson: Yeah. And it’s so important that we do. The lessons of history are so important, and especially from the scriptures, where you can learn, “How do we start to stairstep our way back? What were the precursor events that either led to good results or to bad results?” And far too often, we kind of rush to the end. I always find this, actually, at Easter time. Sometimes in our rush to the glorious Resurrection on Easter Sunday, we forget, or maybe we just don’t pay close enough attention to, what preceded that. And if you work your way back through the Easter story, you find important lessons of the Savior when He spoke, when He didn’t, what His followers did in the midst of a real trying time, and a lot of words being asked and shouted, and a lot of those things going on.
And of course, you work it all the way back to before all of those events of that Easter week started to play out. And what was the Savior teaching His disciples? That they love one another, and that By this shall all men know ye are my disciples (see John 13:35), and the institution of the sacrament, and that beautiful opportunity for us to renew covenant and to live our lives in such a way as disciples of Jesus Christ, that we are worthy to always have His Spirit to be with us. That’s an extraordinary promise. And if you think of that working your way through what at the time, I’m sure, seemed like incredible injustice to those early disciples and followers of Jesus Christ, all the pain, all the suffering, all the hopes and dreams that they had put on the Savior, and then the darkness that followed, and then that glorious morning. Morning always comes. And when it comes to politics, it’s actually the same; morning always comes.
Here in the United States, of course, we have our major elections on the first Tuesday of November. And for decades, I have told people that the most important day in an election cycle here or anywhere, for that matter, is not the first Tuesday of November; it’s the first Wednesday of November, because on the first Wednesday of November, people all across the country of faith, of different faiths, all kinds of beliefs, are going to wake up, and they’re going to get their kids ready for school, and they’re going to go to work, and they’re going to coach Little League, and they’re going to be part of a Young Men’s or a Young Women’s activity. They’re going to serve and minister to a neighbor in need. And everything continues on in my neighborhood. My neighbor, Denise Anderson, initiated something in our little neighborhood years ago, and it takes place on the Saturday after the election, and it is a 1K Donut Run; not 10K, not 5K, not 3K.
Jon Ryan Jensen: You said 1K, and I wasn’t listening. Then you said donuts, now I’m listening.
43:49
Boyd Matheson: 1K and donuts. So it is less than the length of one street in our neighborhood. And I remember several years ago, it was the Saturday after the election. It had been an incredibly contentious election cycle, a lot of hard feelings, a lot of emotion. And I remember that Saturday morning I woke up, and I did not want to go to the 1K donut run. And I told my wife, Debbie, “I don’t want to go.” She’s like, “We go. We’re going to go.” And a little begrudgingly, I got up, we went. We meet in this area, we call it the grassy bowl there in the corner of the neighborhood. And I saw all of my neighbors had come. And every year they pick a different charity, and they raise a little bit of money for that. And we have a big motivational speech about all our training, you know, to get to the end of the street so we can get to the donuts and hot chocolate. And the race is really over before it begins.
But as I walked around, I didn’t hear a single person say anything about who they voted for or didn’t vote for, or how great this was, or how awful or terrible this was. I heard people talking about someone in the neighborhood who had just had a surgery and someone who had a parent who had just passed away. And the only thing I heard about a politician was a member of my neighborhood who, in answering a question about, “Oh, what are we going to do after the election?” she said, “Well, my family got up and we did what we do every single morning in our house; we pray for the president of the country.” And that was the only political comment I heard, and the race started and ended, and we ate donuts, and people stayed there for hours in community.
It was sacred ground, because it wasn’t about the politics, it wasn’t about anything else. It was about people coming together and recognizing that we are connected as children of our Heavenly Father. President Nelson has said this over and over again, that life with God is better than life without. And when we come together in community, as we gather, we recognize how united we are, and it goes back to where we started, Ryan, linking and locking arms.
I watched President Nelson do that with our good friend, Rev. Amos Brown, pastor of the historic Third Baptist Church of San Francisco. I’ve watched those two link and lock arms in so many different places. I saw them in Detroit at the NAACP National Convention, where they stood side by side, shoulder to shoulder, united in principles, recognizing their differences. This is never to be construed as just having good group hugs and avoiding real issues. It’s not about that at all. But when we link and lock arms, we start to travel together, and as we travel together, it becomes a little bit of a road to Emmaus.
And often when we link and lock arms with other people, across our differences, especially, but we recognize those differences, and we link and lock arms because we can do something together to make a difference in the world, we will often find that the Savior, Jesus Christ, will lock arms and link arms with us, and he’ll walk with us on that road to Emmaus, and again, it will lead to common ground, to higher ground, and ultimately to holy ground. And that’s why we’re here on earth. We’re here to work together, to be together and to become like our Heavenly Father. And that means getting past our differences, recognizing our divinity and then coming together to solve problems for all of our Heavenly Father’s children.
47:23
Jon Ryan Jensen: Boyd, I can’t think of a better example of having a listening heart than referencing here at the end the Savior walking along that road to Emmaus as well. “Did not our heart burn within us(?)” (Luke 24:32). That’s the moment we’re looking for.
As we wrap up, you know we have a tradition here at the Church News podcast to give our guests the final word. And on this topic, after we’ve discussed the different ways that our current President and Prophet of the Church have given us to unite with “the one,” and looking at scriptures, looking at previous prophets and, of course, the Savior, I would love to hear what you know now that can help us to avoid contention in our lives and continue to live in a way, even in political turmoil, in a way that allows us to have the Spirit with us.
48:07
Boyd Matheson: Yeah, I think it’s all found back in the Savior and in His presence, which is what we’re all striving for. And so things come, and big challenges come. And as I said, we have to get comfortable with uncomfortable conversations. But there’s a way to do that. And again, it’s not avoiding problems, it’s not putting our head in the sand or hunkering down in our own homes. We have been called to lead, and we’ve been called to serve, and we’ve been called to minister, and you can’t do that alone.
I’ll come full circle to our conversation with Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in Lima, Peru, where he had a group of young people, young professionals, who were just there because they so desperately wanted to make a difference in their countries. And Elder Bednar said, “You are the hope of your countries. You are the hope of your country.” What an amazing thing, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, to be the hope of a country, to recognize that, “What I do matters and makes a difference.” Doesn’t mean you have to run for political office. Doesn’t mean you have to be in the middle of a big debate. But we all can make a difference. And it’s as Elder Bednar often describes; it’s one by one. We all can do something today. We can’t do everything today, but we can do something today.
And so, I can get a little pessimistic about our politics around the world, but I’ve never been more hopeful for the future, because of the people I see in community, and especially because of the people I see in the community of Christ, within the Church of Jesus Christ, covenant-keeping, covenant-living disciples of Jesus Christ. They’re the ones that give me great hope for the future of any country and every community. And so, I think what I know is not only can we be the hope of our nations, not only can we be the hope of our communities, we’ve also been given a challenge by living prophets and apostles and by the Savior Himself to be the hope in our communities.
50:16
Jon Ryan Jensen: Thank you for listening to the Church News podcast. I’m your host, Church News editor Jon Ryan Jensen. I hope you learned something today about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and had your faith in the Savior increase by looking through the Church News window as a living record of the Restoration. Please subscribe, rate and review this podcast so it can be accessible to more people. And if you enjoyed the messages we shared today, please share the podcast with others. Thanks to our guests; to my producer, KellieAnn Halvorsen; and to others who make this podcast possible. Join us every week for a new episode. Find us on your favorite podcasting channels or with other news and updates about the Church on TheChurchNews.com or on the Church News app.
